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The Bible is clear on other basic teachings; why not on this, deemed the most important one by Trinitarians? Would not the Creator of the universe author a book that was clear on his being a Trinity if that were the case?

From the picture of the Trinity doctrine that appeared after the Council of Constantinople in 381 C.E. it includes the following definite ideas:

1. There are said to be three divine persons—the Father, the Son, and the holy spirit—in the Godhead.

2. Each of these separate persons is said to be eternal, none coming before or after the other in time.

3. Each is said to be almighty, with none greater or lesser than the other.

4. Each is said to be omniscient, knowing all things.

5. Each is said to be true God.

6. However, it is said that there are not three Gods but only one God

**Was it a teaching of Jesus and his disciples? If so, it should have appeared fully formed in the first century of our Common Era. And since what they taught is found in the Bible, then the Trinity doctrine is either a Bible teaching or it is not. If it is, it should be clearly taught in the Bible.

It is not reasonable to think that Jesus and his disciples would teach people about God and yet not tell them who God is, especially when some believers would be asked to give up even their lives for God. Hence, Jesus and his disciples should have given the highest priority to teaching others about this vital doctrine.

Keep in mind that the Scriptures are “inspired of God” and are to be used for “setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.” (2 Timothy 3:16, 17) So the Bible is complete in doctrinal matters. If the Trinity doctrine is true, it should be there.

So, please answer these questions:

1. Can I find any scripture that mentions “Trinity”?

2. Can I find any scripture that says that God is made up of three distinct persons, Father, Son, and holy spirit, but that the three are only one God?

3. Can I find any scripture that says that the Father, Son, and holy spirit are equal in all ways, such as in eternity, power, position, and wisdom?
BETA: Sorry, but I don’t have LDS roots. This comes from years of investigating what the Bible *really* teaches.
Apostle: Sorry but your point is moot. We are urged to “seek God” and to “draw close” to Him. How can we do that if we do not know the very nature of Him? He *wants*us to get to know Him. that is why he had the Bible preserved for us. And comparing *********….oh man, that is just disrespectful.
Beta, you are too.
HAPPYLASS: The Holy spirit is God’s active force, not Jehovah God’s power residing within himself, but his energy when projected out from himself for the accomplishing of his purposes. Your scriptures talk about the Holy Spirit, but you personify it by twisting to make it seem as if it’s a being. It’s not. (Again, it’s God’s active force).
we find Jesus repeatedly using impersonal pronouns when referring to God’s holy spirit, a most disrespectful thing to do if the holy spirit were the third person of a trinity, coequal and cosubstantial with Jehovah God himself. “The spirit of the truth, which the world cannot receive, because it neither beholds it nor knows it. You know it, because it remains with you and is in you.” (John 14:17, NW; Ro; AT; ED)
mellamarlene: you can find the truth in any Bible. However, saying the NWT is not accurate is a HUGE assumption on your part. I encourage you to find out for yourself just how accurate it is, instead of passing around lies started by those who want to discredit it for their own agenda.
mellamarlene: you can find the truth in any Bible. However, saying the NWT is not accurate is a HUGE assumption on your part. I encourage you to find out for yourself just how accurate it is, instead of passing around lies started by those who want to discredit it for their own agenda.

We will answer by quoting a number of aayaat (verses) from the Book of Allaah (the Qur’aan – the scripture of Islam), then you can think to yourself about the matter and if the truth becomes clear to you, you will have no choice but to follow it. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“We created you, then why do you believe not?
Then tell Me (about) the human ***** that you emit.
Is it you who create it (i.e., make this ***** into a perfect human being), or are We the Creator?
We have decreed death unto you all, and We are not unable,
To transfigure you and create you in (forms) that you know not.
And indeed, you have already known the first form of creation (i.e., the creation of Adam). Why then do you not remember or take heed?
Tell Me! The seed that you sow in the ground.
Is it you that make it grow, or are We the Grower?
Were it Our Will, We could crumble it to dry pieces, and you would be regretful (or left in wonderment),
(Saying), ‘We are indeed Mughramoon (i.e., ruined, or lost the money without any profit, or punished by the loss of all that we spent for cultivation, etc.)!
‘Nay, but we are deprived!’
Tell Me! The water that you drink,
Is it you who cause it from the rainclouds to come down, or are We the Causer of it to come down?
If We willed, We verily could make it salt (and undrinkable). Why then do you not give thanks (to Allaah)?
Tell Me! The fire which you kindle,
Is it you who made the tree thereof to grow, or are We the Grower?
We have made it a Reminder (for the Hell-fire, in the Hereafter); and an article of use for the travellers (and all others, in this world).
The glorify with praises the Name of your Lord, the Most Great.
So I swear by mawaaqi’ (setting to the mansions, etc.) of the stars (they traverse),
And verily, that is indeed a great oath, if you but knew,
That (this) is indeed an honourable recital (the Noble Qur’aan).” [Quran 56:57-77]

Were they created by nothing, or were they themselves the creators?
Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay, but they have no firm Belief. Or are with them the treasures of your Lord? Or are they the tyrants with the authority to do as they like?” [Quran 52:35-37]

“Verily, the creation of the heavens and the earth, and in the alternation of night and day, and the ships which sail through the sea with that which is of use to mankind, and the water (rain) which Allaah sends down from the sky and makes the earth alive therewith after its death, and the moving (living) creatures of all kinds that He has scattered therein, and in the veering of winds and clouds which are held between the sky and the earth, are indeed aayaat (proofs, evidences, signs) for people of understanding.” [Quran 2:164]

“It is He Who sends down water (rain) from the sky, and with it We bring forth vegetation of all kinds, and out of it We bring forth green stalks, from which We bring forth thick clustered grain. And out of the date-palm and its spathe come forth clusters of dates hanging low and near, and gardens of grapes, olives and pomegranates, each similar (in kind) yet different (in variety and taste). Look at their fruits when they begin to bear, and the ripeness thereof. Verily! In these things there are signs for people who believe.” [Quran 6:99]

“And it is He Who sends the winds as heralds of glad tidings, going before His Mercy (rain), till when they have carried a heavy-laden cloud, We drive it to a land that is dead, then We cause water (rain) to descend thereon. Then We produce every kind of fruit therewith. Similarly, We shall raise up the dead, so that you may remember or take heed.” [Quran 7:57]

“Is not He (better than your gods) Who created the heavens and the earth, and sends down for you water (rain) from the sky, whereby We cause to grow wonderful gardens full of beauty and delight? It is not in your ability to cause the growth of their trees. Is there any god with Allaah? Nay, but they are a people who ascribe equals (to Him)!” [Quran 27:60]

“He has created the heavens and the earth without any pillars that you see, and has set on the earth firm mountains, lest it should shake with you. And He has scattered therein moving (living) creatures of all kinds. And We send down water (rain) from the sky, and We cause (plants) of every goodly kind to grow therein.” [Quran 31:10]

And the two seas (kinds of water) are not alike, this fresh, sweet and pleasant to drink, and that saltish and bitter. And from them both you eat fresh tender meat (fish), and derive the ornaments that you wear. And you see the ships cleaving (the sea-water as they sail through it), that you may seek of His Bounty, and that you may give thanks.” [Quran 35:12]

And it is He Who has let free the two seas (kinds of water), one palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter, and He has set a barrier and a complete partition between them.” [Quran 25:53]

This is a selection of clear aayaat that include th

1 – Where did the space for the universe come from?
2 – where did matter come from?
3 – Where did the laws of the universe come from? (Gravity, inertia, etc.)
4 – How did matter get so perfectly organized?
5 – Where did the energy come from to do all the organizing?
6 – When, where, why and how did life come from dead matter?
7 – When, where, why and how did life learn to reproduce itself?
8 – With what did the first cell capable of sexual reproduction reproduce?
9 – Why would any plant or animal want to reproduce more of its kind since this would only make more mouths to feed and decrease the chances of survival? (Does the individual have a drive to survive, or the species? How do you explain this?)
10 – How can mutations (recombining of the genetic code) create any new, improved varieties? (Recombining English letters will never produce Chinese books)
11 – Is is possible that similarities in design between different animals prove a common Creator instead of a common ancestor?
12 – Natural Selection only works with the genetic information available and tends only to keep the species stable. How would you explain the increasing complexity in the genetic code that must have occured if evolution were true?
13 – When, where, why and how did: a) single-celled plants become multi-celled (where are the two-and three-celled intermediates?), b) single-celled animals evolve?, c) fish change to amphibians?, d) amphibians change to reptiles?, e) reptiles change to birds? (
the lungs, bones, eyes, reproductive organs, heart, method of locomotion, body covering, etc are all very different!) How did the intermediate forms live?
14 – When, where, why, how and from what did: a) whales evole?, b) sea horses evolve, c) bats evolve?, d) eyes evolve?, e) ears evolve?, f) hair, skin, feathers, scales, nails, claws, etc evolve?
15 – Which evolved first (how and how long did it work without the others): a)digestive system, the food to be digested, the appetite, the ability to find and eat the food, the digestive juices, or the bodies resistance to its own digestive juices (stomach, intestines, etc)? b) the drive to reproduce or the ability to reproduce? c) the lungs, the mucus lining to protect them, the throat, or the perfect mixture of gases to be breathed into the lungs? d) DNA or RNA to carry the DNA message to cell parts? e) the termite or the flagella and its intestines that actually digest the cellulose? f) the plants or the insects that live on them pollonatte the plants? g) the bones, ligaments, tendons, blood supply or muscles to move the bone? h) the nervous system , repair system or hormone system? i) the immune system or the need for it?

By: Doctor Kent Hovind and he is offering $250,000 to anyone who can give any empirical evidence (scientific proof) for evolution.

Folks, seriously, Hovind’s tax issues are his burden and I pray that he gets his life back on track with God. The point of this question was to show people that there is no way to PROVE evolution. As much as God is a fairy tale to some, evolution is more so. Where are all of your intermediate links? Even Darwin himself admitted that this was a problem. And yes, I have read The Origin of Species and also, the Descent of Man. There is nothing proven in these books except that things change and adapt. That, friends, is not evolution.

Also, to the folks who though I was being smug or that I am ignorant – God Bless you.

Let me just mention some of the things that the bible said were true thousands of years ago and that science has just discovered to be true in recent years. These facts were all stated in the bible anywhere’s from 2,000-4,000 years ago depending on which book you find it in.

1)The earth floats free in space(Job 26:7)—Job was written 4000 years ago. No one knew this fact 4000 years ago.
2)Creation is made of particle, indiscernible to our eyes(atoms, molecules, electrons,…….)(Hebrews 11:3)— Not until the 19th century was that known.
3)There are mountains on the bottom of the ocean(Jonah 2:5,6)—This was discovered in the last century.
4)Blood is the source of life and health(Leviticus 17:11,14)—Up until 120 years ago, sick people were “bled” and many died as a result(e.g. George Washington). Today we know that healthy blood is necessary to bring life giving nutrients to every cell in the body. God declared that “the life of the flesh is in the blood” long before science understood it’s function.
5)Our bodies are made of the dust of the ground(Genesis 2:7;3:19)—-Scientists have discovered that the human body is comprised of 28 trace elements, all of which are found in the earth.
6) The universe had a beginning(Genesis 1:1; Hebrews 1:10-12)—Starting with the studies of Albert Einstein in the early 1900’s, science has confirmed the biblical view that the universe had a beginning. When the bible was written most people believed that the universe was eternal. Science has proven them wrong but the bible was correct.
7) The earth is a sphere(Isaiah 40:22)—At the time when many thought the earth was flat, the bible told us that the earth is spherical. Incidently, for those who call christians ‘flat earthers’, that verse is 2700 years
old.
8)Scripture assumes a revolving spherical earth(Luke 17:34-36)—-Jesus said that at his return some would be asleep at night while others would be working at daytime activities in the field. This is a clear indication of a revolving earth with day and night occurring simultaneously.
9)Light can be divided(Job 38:24)—Sir Isaac Newton studied light and discovered that white light is made of 7 colors, which can be parted and then recombined. Science confirmed this 400 years ago, The Bible declared this 4000 years ago.
10)The continents were created as one large land mass(Genesis 1:9,10)—Many geologists agree that the earth was originally one super continent.
11)Hydrological cycle described(Job 36:27,28)—About4000 years ago the bible declared that God “draws up drops of water which distills as rain from the mist which the clouds drop down and pour abundantly on man”. The ancients observed mighty rivers flowing into the ocean, but they could not conceive why the sea level never rose.. Though they observed rainfall they had only quaint theories as to it’s origin. Meteorologists now understand that the hydrological cycle consists of evaporation, atmospheric transportation,distillation and precipitation.
12)Circumcision on the 8th day is ideal(Genesis 17:12)—Medical science has discovered that the blood clotting chemical Prothrombin peaks in a newborn on the 8th day. This is therefore, the safest day to circumcise a baby. If you do it before that he’ll bleed to death. How did Moses know that?
13)The universe is expanding(Job9:8,Isaiah42:5,Je… 51:15,Zechariah12:1 and other verses)—Seventeen times in the Old Testament it says that “God is stretching the heavens”. During the 20th century most scientists(including Einstein) believed the universe was static. Others believed it should have collapsed due to gravity. Then in 1929 astronomer Edwin Hubble showed distant galaxies were receding from the earth and the further away they were, the faster they were moving. This discovery revolutionized the field of astronomy. Einstein admitted his mistake and today most astronomers agree with what the creator told us thousands of years ago–the universe is expanding.
14)Light travels in a path(Job 38:19)— Light is said to have a “way”{Hebrew:derek, literally a traveled path or road]. Until the 17th century it was believed that light was transmitted instantaneously. We now know that light is a form of energy that travel at 186,000 miles per second in a straight line. Indeed, there is a way of light.
15)Air has weight(Job 28:25)— It was once thought that air was weightless. Yet 4000 years ago Job declared that God established “a weight for the wind”.
16)Ocean currents anticipated(Psalms 8:8)—-About 3000 years ago the bible describles the “paths of the sea”. In the 19th century Mathew Maury…the father of oceanography, after reading Psalms chapter 8, researched and discovered ocean currents that follow specific paths through the seas.

Contrary to all the jibberish you hear in todays secular humanist public schools about how we used to believe a lot of myths in the bible and then science came along and proved the bible wrong…..on the contrary, the bible was way ahead of science. Even though the bible is not a scientific book, when it does speak on science it is accurate. To quote Robert Jastrow:
“This is an exceedingly strange development, unexpected by all but the theologians. They have always accepted the word of the Bible: In the beginning God created heaven and earth… [But] for the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; [and] as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.”

- Robert Jastrow
(God and the Astronomers [New York: W.W. Norton and Co., 1978], 116. Professor Jastrow was the founder of NASA’s Goddard Institute, now director of the Mount Wilson Institute and its observatory.)

PS—Robert Jastrow is not a christian.

Source(s):

http://www.johnankerberg.org/articles/_p…

http://www.johnankerberg.org/articles/_p…

http://www.johnankerberg.org/articles/_p…

http://www.johnankerberg.org/ankerberg-a…

http://www.johnankerberg.org/articles/_p…

http://www.johnankerberg.org/articles/_p…

http://www.geocities.com/heartland/7547/…

http://www.thematrix.co.uk/

http://www.pleaseconvinceme.com/…

http://www.reasons.org/index.shtml…

I’d like to give credit where credit is due…these science facts were given to me by another user in an answer to another question…
The problem is, I’ve forgotten his name…but here’s to you, Unknown User…may your research bring glory to God!

That is, I notice that many of the argument include assumptions like, “If God really existed, he would immediately heal everybody in the hospitals.” or “He would appear before me right now at my request and converse with me.” or “He would prove himself to vast crowds by means of miracles and otherwise unexplainable wonders.”

But if a god/God has such power, knowledge, and superiority to his creation (and his creatures), WHY SHOULD WE ASSUME that he would do things “our way”??

MORE DETAILS IF YOU NEED THEM:

Logically speaking, would it not be likely that an “infinite god/God” would have his own agenda, so to speak? Perhaps even his own timing or ultimate process? I don’t presume to know — but I do feel confident that ASSUMING THE DEFINITION OF A CREATOR GOD, I have few logical grounds for assuming that I can predict what god/God will do and how he will do it, right?

I certainly understand why someone would choose to conclude that God has provided insufficient proofs for his existence. (No argument there.) But I do NOT understand why god/God’s failure to “live up to” human presuppositions tells us much of anything.

And just to cite an example of one presupposition that I’ve often seen presented as a MUST DO for god/God: “He should want to do everything possible to show himself and convince all humans of his existence.” YET, if god/God is like the God of the Bible, the text says that (1) it is part of the “glory of God” to conceal himself and be selective about who will come to believe [e.g. "And because of their lack of belief he did no miracles there." and 'It is to the glory of God to conceal a matter and the glory of kings to see it out."], and (2) to look upon God is fatal [perhaps depending upon the circumstances, according to the text….and the reaction of people confronted by the Holy was to fall on the ground flat in fear.

So, putting aside for the moment the unhelpful whining of “But god/God doesn’t exist” and “But the Bible is a book of fables”, isn’t it LOGICAL to assume that the difference between a Creator Deity and mere humans would be such that it would be presumptuous to assume what god/God “must do” if he exists and is as he is defined/described in the Bible?
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Yes, people, there are a host of OTHER questions, issues, whatever I COULD have asked, but I asked about THIS PARTICULAR SUBJECT. If you don’t LIKE the question, there are plenty of others that might better fit your interests. MY PURPOSES are to solicit ideas for a PARTICULAR TOPIC that is part of an article I’m doing on how people approach the idea of DEITY.

The ubiquitous complaints about “The bible being a book of fables” and “God doesn’t exist” are not WHINING ON THEIR OWN but they ARE WHINING WHEN THEY ARE IRRELEVANT to a particular question. (Yikes, people. It’s not brain surgery!)
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GRASSHOPPER:

“Atheists dont assume that he would, they ask why he doesnt do those things.”

But isn’t the negative form of a presupposition just another kind of presupposition? After all, the very fact that you ASK why he DOESN’T do those things involves a particular interest in knowing why he does NOT do what you presume. Right?

===> PEOPLE: There is no CRITICISM in saying that someone has PRESUPPOSITIONS! Everybody does about most things! The purpose of the question is to draw out the REASONS why you think various presuppositions are VALID/logical.
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DAKIN:

“You do realize that you are projecting so hard that I could shove a flash light up you and show a power point right?”

OF COURSE, Einstein! The purpose of the question is to describe a very common phenomenon and collect the most common rationale/reasoning of why the presuppositions are valid/reasonable/

But the anger provoked by simple questions of this sort is fascinating in itself — so the exercise is not in vain, in any case.

(But if Daken and others think that this would represents some sort of effective apologetics exercise — if that is your inference — that part DOES seem illogical. How would soliciting your views of the concept of deity (and there are an almost infinite number) somehow bring your thought process to some particular conclusion??
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MATHIUSDRAGOON:

Yes, I can see what you mean. Excellent observation. R&S often seems to draw out these kinds of “extreme answers” as if every question on this forum has some sort of ulterior underlying meta-question or statement behind it.

But what is particular interesting to me is if the question and details are worded just right, BOTH ends of the spectrum go into meta-mode and take off on their wildest arguments of issue which aren’t even on the table. (In this instance I got a few from the Christian side but they were not as emotive for the most part and perhaps not as interesting. But data is data.)
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DAKIN:

“The gift that keeps on giving.”

Any other good Christians buy it yet? I have only read a little so far but judging from what I have seen so far, I am very happy with my decision to buy this book. I think it is necessary reading for every Christian. I also have ‘Case for the Creator’ by Lee Strobel .
For a light introduction that is very enjoyable I recommend
‘Defeating Darwinism by Opening Minds’ by Phillip E. Johnson

This morning my pastor was continuing our Sunday school lesson about the subject of church unity. We recently finished a discussion of “The Bait of Satan” book by John Bevere, so this was a follow up lesson. Today my pastor was making the point that the only true source of unity in a local church is mutual commitment (i.e., total commitment to our great God/savior and Creator of every thing, Jesus Christ, the Alpha and the Omega, also called Jehovah God).

Then an older man, probably in his early 90s, raised his hand to make a comment. He said that there was also another kind of unity, which he described as “fake unity.” He went on to explain that in the various cults, the members are taught that the only way of having any chance of getting eternal life is by being a member of that group. (We may call this “exclusiveness.”) So if the members do not “tow the line,” then they risk disfellowship by the elders or by the governing body. And if you are disfellowshipped, (and if you died in that “apostate” condition), then you would definitely not have eternal life. So he argued that there is a HUGE fear element in this. As he put it, very simply, FEAR is the main reason why you see such extraordinary “unity” in the various cults.

Would you agree with that?

This ebook talks about the necessity of belief and of a transcendent standard. Do you agree?

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